I didn't read the whole thing bc I'm pressed for time, but it sounded good to me - we leave the public schools and start schools that are non-government funded but still affordable. right. good. sounds impossible, but with God...well, you know how it goes.

Public schools are government indoctrination centers whose policy is set by socialist-leaning bureaucrats who see anything traditional, conservative, or Christian (not necessarily in that order) as a threat, and consider parents teaching those values to their children tantamount to child abuse.

Sounds good to me.

We've had our kids both in private Christian schools and (once they hit JH) the public schools.

We're blessed with an AWESOME school district here in northwest Houston.

My mother and my sister (plus a whole ton of my extended familymembers) have been teachers in public schools. Dedicated, hard working public school teachers.

A lot of the members of the singles class we teach are Christian public school teachers.

Oddly enough, Blo and his wife afford a living because he works for a public school district :-)

In short: I don't have much to say other than I think SBC resolutions generally cause a lot more harm than good.

And if you're blessed with a great school district, as we are, you should thank God daily for it.

Now, go thank a teacher.

That is all.

I find it interesting that the gentleman who wrote that doesn't open up his blog for comments.

Full disclosure time. I'm not a Baptist and I'm in a bad mood. Actually angry, but not over this, I would appreciate some grace should I step out of line. I will start with one question.

Where are the Baptist educational facilities to combat the horrors of government run, centralized, non-Christian educational system?

If the educational system is so bad why did the churches, which is how organized education started, allow the government to take over the system and why has the church waited so long to provide alternatives?

Just asking.

Both of our kids went to an RC school through 8th grade. Due to the "attitude" we were experiencing when it came time for my, now 16 year old, son to attend kindergarten.

They received, without question, a better education there than they would have in a public school. However, and this would be the kicker with any religious school. Some of the teachers while professing to be practicing RC'ers are Christians in name only.

My wife and I both worked full-time so home schooling would have been a major blow to our income. Also we consider ourselves, particularly me, woefully unqualified to home school.

I've have had a home school parent quip that, "if you can raise 'em you can educate 'em. This, to my way of thinking, is not any different than having a "Powered by Jesus" sticker on your car.

We are also blessed with a great school district. My son has received an award for his ACT scores, he’s thirteen BTW. They have offered my children a wonderful learning experience. I know I couldn’t give them at home. I can also say that all of my son’s grade school teachers are Christians. I know that my daughter’s teacher is a Christian. You have to make the right choice for your family.

Is there anywhere where we can read the actual proposal? It looks like the link to it is broken.

So I obviously haven't read it, but I'll comment anyway. Actually trying to start an affordable alternative to public schools is great, if that's what these guys are doing. But just simply telling parents they have to pull their kids out of public schools, period -- if that's what this is about (as was another proposal made to the SBC a few years ago) that's just Pharisaism at its finest. A single mother can't homeschool. Two parents who both work as janitors just to make the payment on their trailer can't homeschool either.

By the way. In Western Michigan, there's one of the largest "Christian" school networks in the nations. In many ways it has succeeded primarily in producing a lot of students who know exactly how to spit out all the right God-speak without it actually making a difference to their hearts or lives . . . the schools can't do much if the parents don't model faith at home. Or the massive Catholic schooling system of past generations would have retained more Catholics . . .

Actually, check that... it's an article about the proposal. I'll try to track it down.

can I just come right out and say - I can afford the weaker Christian schools in our area, but I flat out can't afford the good ones.....we tried homeschooling - not for us....we tried the weaker Christian schools, and found that our money is better saved for college.....I really do believe, though its not spiritual to say it - it comes down to what you can afford - from a time and money standpoint......truth be told and money were no object, I'd have my kids in one of the elite academies - though not Christian, that's where (in our area) the best education appears to be.

The actual proposal is here (3 pages)

And here is the letter to the resolutions committee about the proposal. (15 pages)

I really do believe, though its not spiritual to say it - it comes down to what you can afford - from a time and money standpoint......

Sounds plenty spiritual enough to me, nhe. Preach on!

And thanks to you and Sara for pointing out that not every school with the word "Christian" stamped on it is a place you should send your kids.

"And De, you said some good things, but it's not necessary to "ignore the SBC on this one" because what's under discussion here is a proposed resolution that would be non-binding even on SBC-affiliated churches. The SBC is not monolithic and you will find a broad spectrum of views on this issue, many of which have no doubt already been expressed on this thread. "

I understand how the SBC works, as I'm a member of it :-)

And, you're right, I don't need to say "ignore the SBC on this one" because everyone will anyway. Just like they ignored the SBC on the Disney boycott.

Baptists don't like being told what to do. That's why they are baptists.

"As a public school product I will unabashedly say that I have no intention of my child setting foot in one. That's my "crazy," and highly subjective, no doubt fear-driven, perspective."

I feel a need to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. SCPanther - I am a parent. And I'm crazy. It wasn't meant as a put-down of people who put their kids in non-public schools (all of my kids have gone through Christian private school).

I certainly wasn't calling parents who don't use the public school system "crazy". At least no more so than all parents who love their kids. I'm crazy. You're crazy. Jared's crazy. We're all nuts when it comes to our kids, and we can't talk about this topic without getting really defensive, regardless of which side we're on.

I'm not sure if what I wrote offended you, but I think it did, hence this explanation.

No worries, SCP!

Trust your Christian friends to parent their kids well.

Yes!

You know, the parents I know who homeschool their kids are bright, godly, involved, industrious parents. I love them and their kids are awesome.

But when this issue comes up, I always have this sinking feeling someone is secretly thinking a) I'm a bad parent b/c I don't homeschool, or b) my kids aren't ________ b/c they're not homeschooled. I don't know what to put in that blank, but sometimes it's "safe," sometimes it's "smart," sometimes it's "spiritual."

I wish we could do this without saying a) homeschoolers are unsocialized legalists and b) public schoolers are liberal world-lovers, but it doesn't seem to happen. And, I'll be totally honest here, in the circles I run in, the rhetoric tends to run against public school more than homeschool.
And that's why I'm sick of this subject. I don't need to feel like a second class parent who doesn't love my kids as much as my friends do theirs.

Does that mean I think I can "save" my child? Don't be absurd. Equating the desire to have your child educated in an environment that reflects your values to a works-based view of salvation is way off base, to put it mildly.

Since this is a response to Sara's previous comment, msybe I should let her speak for herself. But I can't help chiming in. I think the point is not that "Homeschooling parents are trying to save their kids, which they can't do." I think Sara was responding to the attitudes of 1) several publicly strident homeschooling proponents who are out there and are are influential and are bordering on works salvation and 2) the minority (I think) of homeschooling parents who have become "disciples" of these guys. Again, maybe I should just let Sara speak for herself, but I don't think she is "Equating the desire to have your child educated in an environment that reflects your values to a works-based view of salvation..." But she is complaining (with good reason, I think) that alot of homeschooling proponents are teaching something awfully close to that.

Now that I have spoken for Sara, I will let Jared speak for me: "I wish we could do this without saying a) homeschoolers are unsocialized legalists and b) public schoolers are liberal world-lovers.... [I]n the circles I run in, the rhetoric tends to run against public school more than homeschool.... I don't need to feel like a second class parent who doesn't love my kids as much as my friends do theirs."

Sara

I appreciate what you're saying, but I still get hung up on lines like this one: "But there are also parents out there who are homeschooling their kids because they are convinced, either conciously or sub-conciously, to send their kids to public school would basically be to abandon them to hell."

I'm not a homeschool parent, but I can tell you that they get slammed this way all the time.

If a parent has true concerns about the public school environment (and, trust me, not all public school districts are the same quality. Some truly and genuinely reek), must we characature them as "being afraid"? There are some public schools that are flat out dangerous, spiritually and physically.

Just as, I'm sure, there are some Christian schools that also do damage (although I would never go so far as to accuse them of being "Christian in name only" unless I really knew of some specific heretical or unbiblical practices.).

Case in point: Three of my kids did great in Christian private school through the sixth grade. One of them had an absolutely horrible time there (in 9th grade). You have to take it kid by kid.

I think we should just leave other parents alone, and - unless we know them extremely well, and even then . . . - we should avoid making heart and motivation judgements about why they are doing what they are doing. It truly goes both ways.

Jared,

You're right on. I hope you haven't ever felt like I'm thinking you're a bad 'rent for putting your kids in school. ;-)

While I agree with a lot of what Bauchum is saying, I don't like the mean-spirited rhetoric that only further perpetuates certain erroneous stereotypes.

On the other hand you have the rhetoric employed by Sara, which, I think, falls off of the other side of the horse.

To quote Rodney King: "Can we all get along?"

"So I think it's that rhetoric that needs the most correction."

I think it all needs correction, frankly :-).

Case in point. I was once reading the blog of a former youth minister, now church planter (note to all from my church - it's not Chris I'm talking about. It's someone I don't know).

He was, based on his picture and blog, extremely relevant.

He was attempting to write a funny post about the "ten things" or whatever he'd learned as a student minister. Right there in the middle of it was this nasty nugget (paraphrased from memory):

"Let's face it - homeschooled kids are strange"

I emailed the guy and took him to task. He never really got what my point was and followed the whole "aw, c'mon people. Lighten up" track. But the image I had in my head was of some homeschooled kid who had been under this guy, had looked up to him, thought he was "cool", Godly, and that he hung the moon. Because the kid had respected him so much, he kept up with his blog.

And there, in black and white, this hypothetical (but I'm guessing very real) homeschool kid got to see what their beloved former youth minister really thought of them.

Jerk.

I see all the points. I just think that for everyone who says that one side is worse than the other for rhetoric, we can come up with counterexamples.

Why don't we all just agree to treat eachother with extreme grace?

I feel rather like a prairie dog, sticking my head up after a long while down--only to find my little hole in the middle of an old-fashioned firefight . . . :)

There are a couple of comments in order here, I think, about background and context--specifically, mine, and Sara's. First off, we both grew up in the Reformed Church in America, and if her home congregation wasn't really a part of the Dutch Reformed subculture, being a rather unusual RCA congregation, she still experienced it, through her best friend and in other ways. Me, I grew up in a church where some of the elders still spoke Dutch.

For those of you not familiar with us, the Dutch Reformed culture, and its various denominations, puts a huge emphasis on Christian education. As a consequence, in areas where the Reformed denominations are strong, Christian schools are strong; and in these areas, they often have a rep for being worse than the world. Lynden v. Lynden Christian, Grand Rapids v. Grand Rapids Christian, Grand Rapids Central v. Grand Rapids Central Christian, Holland v. Holland Christian--vicious high-school basketball rivalries all; and in each case, one of the things they're known for is just how badly the Christian-school fans behave (swearing, throwing things, etc.). An outsider's view on these schools is really not pretty, and tends to sour people on Christianity, not just Christian schooling. To be sure, there are Christian schools with a true Christian character--the one Sara attended, for all its faults, was definitely that; but that isn't true of all of them, by a long stretch, and unfortunately, some of the attitudinal faults of our own tradition are part of the reason for that.

Second, two of our best friends through college (who're coming to visit us for the first time next week! Yay!) were home-schooled. For one of them, it was clearly the right choice, and got us thinking about doing it (we decided, ultimately, that we probably wouldn't do a very good job, but hold it as a possible option); for the other, it was probably a very poor move, for a number of reasons. Through them, we've been exposed to a pretty good range of homeschooling families, as we have up here as well; and there are definitely those among them who "are convinced, either conciously or sub-conciously, to send their kids to public school would basically be to abandon them to hell"--and are working their hardest to convince all the parents they know of the same thing--even in a good and congenial school district like this one up here. (I gave a presentation on St. Patrick this year, and they let me teach it all, Jesus Christ, salvation, and the whole nine yards.) To say there are some like that is far from calling them typical, but they are definitely out there--in some places (like here), they're driving the debate--and it isn't rhetoric to say so.

Ultimately, I agree with De's call for grace, because there just isn't only one good way (and in some situations, there isn't any one good way); it has to be kid by kid, place by place, situation by situation. I think, as so often, the problem comes in with the attitude that "if you'd thought about this, if you cared, if you were a real Christian, you'd agree with me--so the fact that you don't means you haven't, you don't, and you aren't." Which is, unfortunately, a problem far beyond this particular issue . . .

So... I take it Sara is Mrs. Mariner? Cool!

My beef is with people who use fear tactics and guilt-trips to try to change other people's well-considered decisions.

Understood, Sara. Let's keep in mind, however, that not all parents have considered the issues as well as you have. And sometimes providing accurate information weighing the merits of one form of education over another, or advocating a particular approach is going to be construed by those who have considered things, or who have no viable alternatives, as fear tactics and guilt-trips.

There are legitimate considerations involved with an educational system that is constrained by law to view homosexuality not as a moral issue, but as a diversity and tolerance issue. Legitimate also are concerns with many facets of curriculum being written with a presumption of naturalistic evolution. While parents on this thread no doubt have assured themselves that these issues are not emphasized in their school districts, or are confident that the interaction in the home will outweigh their influence, there are many parents who need to be made aware of these things so that they can make the same good decisions you have.

All of the above said, I wholeheartedly agree with the admonition to treat each other with grace, and I again have every confidence that the parents represented here have done their due diligence with regard to their childrens' educational environment.

I have tried to speak carefully on this, and perhaps I shouldn't have spoken at all. Sara, while I seem to be responding mostly to your comments, I do not intend to be your adversary on this.

Also, responding to A.M.:
I think, as so often, the problem comes in with the attitude that "if you'd thought about this, if you cared, if you were a real Christian, you'd agree with me--so the fact that you don't means you haven't, you don't, and you aren't."

While I don't have the attitude you describe, I do confess to being genuinely puzzled why some Christians, who have good alternatives, don't utilize them. I really appreciated your post, by the way, because it definitely adds a perspective that is outside my experience.

As I said, I'm a public-school product and my experiences, while mild in comparison to far too many, were such that I have a deep-seated, visceral antipathy toward that system. Granted, some of the negatives could have been experienced in many a school with the "Christian" label. I also cannot claim to have had the counterbalance of a Christian home environment.

My wife, on the other hand, had quality Christian schooling (no scare quotes!) her entire life, and is a graduate of Falwell's Liberty University.

Since she knows of classmates who rebelled against the structures imposed on them, we are inoculated against the idea that just sticking your kids in a Christian school is a surefire remedy to wandering from the faith. Nevertheless, I am admittedly closed-minded on the issue to the point that I haven't thoroughly investigated our local public schools, but I do feel that the issues I've raised above, and others we all hear about everyday, are not rendered moot by my prejudice.

Finally, let me say that I have heard Voddie speak. He is an intense and passionate man and I believe that he views the issue as exactly what he says, one of pursuing holiness and righteousness in all that we do. The fact that you take issue with what he says doesn't make it "mean-spirited," strident thought it may be. In that spirit, while it's harder when you feel your toes are being stepped on, I would ask that we try to extend a little grace to him as well.

AM - Sara - are you from the West Michigan area? You seem pretty familiar with the rivalries...

Wade Burleson wrote in 2005: The Southern Baptist Convention, through trustees of boards and agencies, is narrowing the parameters of fellowship and cooperation to the point that real, genuine conservatives are being excluded as unfit for service in the SBC.

Does it all start with a resolution, building to a consensus, at which point the parameters are really that narrow?

I've weighed in...