"If you think Scripture is telling you what you want to hear, take a long, hard second look."

- The Ancient Mariner
Hey, I Found Some Meat Sacrificed to Idols Over Here -- Time to Get My Grub On!


A PERSONAL MANIFESTO ON CHRISTIAN LIBERTY

No, I don?t think I can run the gamut of this subject. No, I don?t think mine is the final or ultimate word (not by any stretch). No, I can?t be as comprehensive as I?d like to be.
But, yes, I will share how I personally draw "the line" and how I think others might be able to, as well.

This has been a developing concern on our site (and others?) since as long as I can remember. Some people want to know if there is a universal, categorical line not to cross in the realm of Christian liberty, some suspect there is and want to know what the line is, and others think ? no, know -- what that line is and are danged happy to tell everyone so.

Let?s define Christian liberty, first of all. I define it as a questionable area of activity of which the Bible says little or nothing about. This does not mean that if the Bible is silent on something that it is necessarily ?okay.? By contrast, neither does it mean that if the Bible is silent on something that it is necessarily best to consider it a sin just ?to be sure.?

And this is where the need for a ?line? comes in. My personal line can be expressed in a flow chart of sorts:
1. Does the Bible explicitly say this is a sin? If yes, abstain. If no, move to question 2.
2. Will this act definitely be a stumbling block to you or others? If yes, abstain. If no, move to question 3.
3. Do you still have doubts? If you consider yourself a mature Christian with a firm grasp of the Bible, a strong relationship with the Lord, and a good understanding of what things will lead you to or cause you to sin, and you still have doubts, you should abstain. When in doubt, leave it out. If all those descriptives fit you and you have no lingering doubts, enjoy ? then answer question 4.
4. After participating, do you regret it? Is there something about this act that now gives you pause despite your previous ignorance about it? Did it actually cause you to sin or be a stumbling block to others? If the answer to any of those is ?yes,? go back through the questions starting with number 1 and re-evaluate your stance.

No, it?s not cut and dry. But neither is the Bible on things like drinking alcohol, dancing, going to non-G movies, reading ?secular? fiction, or ? heck ? playing cards, watching sports, eating at restaurants that serve alcohol to drunks, or countless other things. And I have learned to be wary of those who use the slimmest of prooftexts to argue that they indeed have the final, universal answer that proves any or all of these things are wrong.

First of all, it is arrogant and unbiblical itself to extend one?s personal lines in the realm of Christian liberty to all others without exception. There are too many mature Christians who drink or watch R-rated movies, etc, to be absolutist about things like the ?a little leaven? verse (if such a verse should be applied to the topic of Christian liberty at all). Similarly, analogies like ?a drop of poison ruins the whole jug? or ?a slowly warming kettle cooks the frog unawares? falsely presuppose that all Christians are just spiritually ?weak? and have the same stumbling blocks as the one making the analogy. I have seen several places categorical statements like, ?If you hang out with sinners a lot, you WILL start to sin.? This supposes to know people?s hearts as God does. This supposes human omniscience. This supposes that the one hanging out is just as immature as the critic. What they really should say is, ?I?m uncomfortable with that, because I know that if I hung out with sinners a lot, I would eventually sin.? (Not to mention that everyone eventually sins, and we have a host of influences to do so in our own selves and in other things not as avoidable as ?lost people.?)

Secondly, extending personal lines in the realm of Christian liberty to universal prohibitions is the evidence of one who has not placed wisdom and authority in the hands of the Holy Spirit and the conscience of the biblically mature, but places it in the hands of the one prohibiting himself (despite the prohibitionist?s biblical references, etc.) When Jesus prayed what is called the high priestly prayer, He acknowledged that His followers would inhabit a troubled world, and He asked God not to take us out of it, but to protect us within it. Do we really trust that God will protect us? If we are abstaining from things the Bible clearly calls sins, do we believe that God will ultimately protect us and others when we wander through the biblical ?gray areas??

I cannot tolerate movies explicitly about demonic possession or oppression. They scare me unbearably so. It would, in a very real way, be a sin for me to subject myself to these movies. Yet I have a friend who has no problem seeing movies like The Exorcist. Do I condemn her? Do I consider that a sin? No. Because I recognize that she is a mature Christian, strong in her faith and wise in the Bible, and because obviously such a movie does not affect her in the same way it affects me. Furthermore, I believe that to extend my personal abstention to a categorical sinfulness on her part is to distrust the Holy Spirit?s guidance in her life. This is what Christian liberty means! Trusting that mature Christians act maturely according to their conscience and not judging them when they do not act according to ours.

And thirdly, there seems to be some idea that the observation of sin is sin itself. How can this not be self-evidently fallacious? The observance of sin is not necessarily sin. Personal sin is not something that happens outside me. It is something that happens inside. So if, having seen a nude scene in a movie, I commit adultery in my heart or engage in lust, I have sinned. But if I do not ? and it is actually possible, despite what all of these "accidentally lusting" men want everyone to think ? then it is not. Seeing violence in movies never makes me want to murder someone, or even merely wish someone harm.

And there is a difference in our solicitation of such works and the solicitation of works like p()rnography. I think it is relatively easy to discern what works are designed, marketed, and intended to cause others to sin and what works may cause someone to sin but do not make that its intent. If someone cannot personally discern this difference, he or she is wise to abstain. (Again, see the flowchart.) But discerning viewers understand that a work is not what it is about; it is how it is about it. A movie about sex is not automatically ?wrong;? it would be wrong depending on what it says about sex. Just as the Bible, in its overarching story of redemption and God?s love, includes depictions of gore, perversion, and other immorality. No one can rightly question the context. Likewise, the context of a film or book or TV show is what tempers my judgment of its content. Again, if that?s too hard for some or too bothersome, they are wise to abstain. But again, what is too hard or too bothersome for some may not be too hard or too bothersome for others.

But what about what the Bible does say? What guidance does the Bible give about the things that fall within the realm of Christian liberty?

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. -- 1 Corinthians 10:31
The drawer of universal lines would here suggest that it is impossible to ?glorify God? in the watching of an R-rated movie. (I wonder if this holds true for The Passion film?) But this again presupposes an extension of one?s personal inability to the supposed inability of others. What if the sin portrayed in an R-rated movie causes you to grieve about the presence of that sin in the world? What if the imperfect message of a non-G movie can be ?redeemed? by oneself to others or in one?s own mind to point toward the Perfect Truth all imperfect ?truths? think they are seeking? What if what you find objectionable in a movie you are able to argue against effectively based on your observation? This is called ?redemptive living,? and I believe it brings glory to God. It is a great way to do all to the glory of God.

And the person who makes it an almost automatic discipline to ?take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ? can be very good at viewing all things redemptively, even to the point at which their participation in the things that cause a universal prohibitionist to stumble can bring glory to God.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. -- Romans 14:23
Here is another prohibitionist prooftext. But taken in its absolute sense, lots of neutral things would be sins (if they are ?not of faith?). Restaurants that serve alcohol are not of faith, so it would be a sin to eat there. Workplaces that are not Christian businesses are not of faith, so it would be a sin to work there. J.C. Penney?s is not a store ?of faith,? so it would be a sin to shop there. Basically, reading this verse in the absolutist sense rules out a host of things that would be ludicrous to consider a sin (although I don?t doubt some do).

And can I mention that the very point of this verse states the opposite of what the prohibitionists think it does? To dismantle some faulty exegesis:
The point of this verse is that if what you are doing is something you doubt is right, you are sinning. (See #3 in my flow chart.) So this is of course binding on one?s personal conscience, but the implicit point is that it is not universal. Basically, what it says is ?whatever you are doing that is considered doubtful by others, if you are doing it in good faith, it is not a sin.? (This presupposes that the thing is not clearly a sin in the Bible anyways ? in this instance, ?eating and drinking.?)
And the context! Oh, the context not only bears my interpretation out, but explicitly rebukes the universal prohibitionist:

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The emphasis is mine, of course, but I wanted to highlight what I?m trying to say and what prohibitionists consistently miss: ?Keep it between yourself and God.? If you have doubts, fine ? then it is a sin for you to do it. But if I do not, and I can ?eat? in good faith, then you have no right ? biblical or otherwise ? to judge my spiritual maturity or direction.

I humbly suggest those who think otherwise read the entire text of Romans 14. It is categorically against the categorical extension of personal sins from within the realm of Christian liberty.

Parting words:
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:2-4)

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Comments on "Hey, I Found Some Meat Sacrificed to Idols Over Here -- Time to Get My Grub On!":
1. Brian - 10/07/2003 1:02 pm CDT

Thanks for the canvas of this topic Jared.

It may not have been "comprehensive" as you put it, but it does offer much enlightenment about what your view of liberty is, and I think is extremely well presented.

I don't have the time to examine this in great detail, so forgive me if I ask something that is covered in this, but here's a couple questions, that I ask with no small trepidation as I have observed that this is an issue with which you are extremely sensitive to. So to preface this: there is now no condemnation in my questions of you. Nor is there any for any of your actions, because they are not in mind.

That said, here is the first question/thought/whatever: Your formula seems to preclude an un-right mind. Let me explain. I have personally experienced interaction with those, whom I will say, unprofessionally of course, are not in their right mind. They lack the capability due to whatever reason (let's say for sake of discussion: intense emotional trauma) to, um, reason rightly. Your formula demands that one can honestly and fully assess the answer to each of those questions. I have encountered those who cannot. They will be in denial over , and hence will justify it using much of the same language you used to describe how we are to be free from the law and judgement of others. And when they are confronted, will withdraw in defense, and condemn such confrontation with strong, albeit imho interpretively narrow, "biblical" language.

All that said, to ask this: do you feel it is right to use discernment to judge the actions of another Christian? If so, then how is the line drawn between allowing for another's liberty, and providing accountability. If not, then why the concept broached by Paul on approaching a wayward brother (or would that ONLY apply to outward, definitive sinful actions)?

2nd semi-related question--also on discernment: the enemy is extraordinarily, and supernaturally cunning. He is the master at deceipt and craft. I know you speak disparagingly about the frog in the boiling pot metaphor, but would you say that there could be applicability in that? To expand upon that point, Paul discriminates between those that are spiritually mature, and those that aren't. If I am not spiritually mature, and yet, in my pride, think that I am, aren't I susceptible to the devices of the enemy in terms of sucumbing to allowing more and more worldly things into my life--things that take me away from my relationship with God, and away from my clearly defined duties to Him. Not saying it's formulaic--just, perhaps, probablistic(is that a word? ;-)

I am not proposing any answers to these, as I don't have any real good ones. In addition, I find that I am not as far along on the spiritual maturation timeline as my age and experience would suggest I should be. Therefore, I hesitate to define for myself a definitive answer to these issues.

I just know that it is in me to deceive, and justify, and rationalize--even to myself. Hence, my personal lines are probably more severe than some, less than others, and very likely not where they should be in any case. But, because of my self-debate, I have not (Bill can testify to the veracity or lack thereof to this :-) told anybody else (outside my family as they are by-and-large my responsibility--however, I have never, to the best of my knowledge, dictated mores to my wife as she is a spiritually responsible adult) what their personal lines should or should not be.

My intent of this response is to evoke some thoughtful discussion. If it instead evokes harsh words and angry emotions, then I apologize, and beg out in advance.

2. Jared - 10/07/2003 1:36 pm CDT

No anger here (but a little emotion). ;-)

Brian, a couple of the things you ask would require a semi-comprehensive take on Pauline ecclesiology I am not equipped with at the moment to respond to. For instance: apparently paradoxical statements in various epistles. Somewhere in 2 Corinthians Paul talks about the godly not having business with the ungodly, yet in 1 Corinthians he talks about how it's not our business to judge those outside the church.
That's just an example to show that we have to let Paul interpret Paul, and I too am wary of making an absolute interpretation based on one verse/passage when in another elsewhere Paul seems to counter the idea or at least qualify it somewhat.

So your things about convicting a brother in sin, etc, are all good points, and I pretty much agree with the line you're following.

As for people "not in their right mind":

Certainly it's possible for someone -- myself included -- to be deceived about something in their own lives. And it is, to some extent, our duty to admonish our brothers and perhaps question deficiencies we see in their spiritual walk. If this is what you consider "judging," have at it.

But such behavior is not what I have in mind in my post. What I'm reacting to is not "Christians should be careful because there's bad stuff out there" -- for that is true enough. What I am reacting to is "Seeing R-rated movies is always wrong for anyone and if anyone sees them he is not seeking the Lord and if he makes excuses he is just justifying his own sin." That's what I'm trying to counter. That's an example of something called legalism, a subject on which the Bible has lots to say.

But what do we make of the brother who thinks he is not sinning -- who believes he is right in his own mind -- but appears to us be sinning and to be deceived by his own pride or sense of self-righteousness, etc?
As you said, we can question, prod, convict if necessary. We can even rebuke if we are sure there are no planks in our own eyes.
But ultimately, we do have to trust the work of the Holy Spirit to the Holy Spirit and not assume it ourselves.

If I am not spiritually mature, and yet, in my pride, think that I am, aren't I susceptible to the devices of the enemy in terms of sucumbing to allowing more and more worldly things into my life--things that take me away from my relationship with God, and away from my clearly defined duties to Him[?]
Yes.
But I'm not sure how this counters anything I've said. We can indeed be self-deceived. But the extreme emphasis placed on this hypothetical situation of yours could lead to a biblical nihilism. Meaning, how can we be sure of our own spiritual maturity or of anyone else's, and how can we be sure that someone rebuking us for our self-deception is not self-deceived themselves, etc etc?
Furthermore, how far deceived would you be before you noticed? You mention sliding so far that we are apart from our relationship with God and things clearly defined as wrong. Wouldn't we realize this, however "secretly"? I don't know if you believe in the security of the believer, but if you do, barring "losing our salvation," don't you think that somewhere down the line we would know we are sinning or far from God? Wouldn't you feel convicted?
I don't believe in an accidental life of sin. Sin is conscious choice and, if we are really Christians, we will know it, however deep down our conviction.

Again, we have to trust the Holy Spirit to ultimately convict. Perhaps we should distance ourselves from those we think are self-deceived to the point that our fellowship with them could harm us or others spiritually. But we have to have a fundamental faith that the Bible is true on what it affirms and that areas of faith the Bible says little to nothing about are ultimately between a person and God.

All that said to say: Even if a self-deceived person believes he or she is fine seeing R-rated movies when we clearly think they are not, it does not necessitate the "wrongness" for all others to see R-rated movies. That's pretty much what I'm arguing against in a nutshell -- the idea that personal boundaries in Christian liberty can be universal prohibitions.

I just know that it is in me to deceive, and justify, and rationalize--even to myself. Hence, my personal lines are probably more severe than some, less than others, and very likely not where they should be in any case.

But are you really self-deceived if you think yourself to be? You are a prime example proving my post's thesis: You know that you sometimes justify, rationalize, or self-deceive, so you wisely draw personal lines to protect yourself from stumbling.
You have just proven yourself a thoughtful Christian, a fairly mature believer listening to your biblically formed conscience.

because of my self-debate, I have not told anybody else what their personal lines should or should not be.

And here again you prove your thoughtfulness and maturity. You have lines, you extend them perhaps to your family as you are commissioned by God to protect and lead them, but you understand that your personal lines are just that -- personal.

3. jen - 10/07/2003 1:52 pm CDT

This is great, Jared...and a good start to the discussion. Brian asked some good questions. You know that you and I are on the same page in this, so I have nothing to add. Just thanks for posting it.

4. Jared - 10/07/2003 2:07 pm CDT

You're welcome, Jen. And thanks.

5. Bird - 10/07/2003 3:32 pm CDT

Rod, well done, my friend. I think this is certainly a topic that all Christians should chew on, and your presentation if great.

At times in my life I have found myself floundering on certain gray issues. After time, I think I had adopted your flow chart without even realizing it. I know that things that I do, for example, smoking pipes and cigars, are seen by some Christians as bad, unwise, or just plain sinful. However, I've found it very freeing to be able to enjoy the things that God's blessed me with, without feeling that I'm not sure if I'm sinning or not. You quoted one of my favorite verses on the matter: "Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves."

6. Bill - 10/07/2003 4:19 pm CDT

On a completely unrelated topic . . .

I'm feeling pretty WAH right now!

7. Jared - 10/07/2003 4:34 pm CDT

I like how the Drudgemoticon's gatorade is greener than the ordinary man's!

8. Bird - 10/07/2003 6:59 pm CDT

Oh, my, that's the funniest thing I've seen all week! That's awesome.

9. Bird - 10/07/2003 7:02 pm CDT

It would really be cool if the smoke showed some kind of movement in my emoticon ...

It kind of hacks me off that it doesn't!

10. Brian - 10/08/2003 7:42 am CDT

Jared,
Thanks for the thoughtful and measured reply. And no, I really didn't mean to contradict any of your points--really, I am seeking to just expand them into more specifics. Not here necessarily, this is more one of those life-discovery type mission...quest...thing.

I think I need a wimpy, girly-man emoticon.

11. LilacRose - 10/08/2003 10:00 am CDT

The finger-waggers are right...
I've decided not to read the Bible anymore. There's so much sex and violence, I just don't think it's appropriate...

12. Dead Man Blogging - 10/09/2003 6:49 am CDT

Rambling Thoughts on Liberty
Jared posted his personal manifesto on Christian liberty the other day and it got me to thinking about this topic. This topic is far from settled in my mind, but this is a snapshot of my thinking right now. I...

13. Raindream - 10/09/2003 11:24 am CDT

I want to comment here, but I feel I must say something profound or you'll be disappointed.

14. Shrode - 10/03/2004 12:05 pm CDT

Just found this post again. I went searching for it when someone asked Jared about watching "sinful" saturday night live over here - http://thinklings.org/?p=1481&c=1

Jared, I just reread this, and thank you for writing it. It's fantastic. I have a discussion question. But I don't have a tactful way of asking, so just remember my heart, and I'll plunge ahead -

Above in this fantastic post, with which I agree 100%, you emphasize "So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God." from Romans Ch. 14.

Could it be that standard question you seem to get usually worded something like How can you watch such and such as a Christian? It's just so sinful., keeps coming up because your not "keeping it between yourself" as the text states? Is posting about our excursions into areas covered by Christian Liberty on this blog a violation of that principle? I'm not accusing, or even really talking about you alone, I'm just asking the question. Let me reword and refocus the heat of this question:

Should I refrain from posting about the Greatness of Metallica (a post I have mostly written and has been in the works for some time), because it might cause someone to stumble? Is that something I should keep to myself?

Comments are closed