"As they passed the rows of houses they saw through the open doors that men were sweeping and dusting and washing dishes, while the women sat around in groups, gossiping and laughing.
"What has happened?" the Scarecrow asked a sad-looking man with a bushy beard, who wore an apron and was wheeling a baby-carriage along the sidewalk.
"Why, we've had a revolution, your Majesty -- as you ought to know very well," replied the man; "and since you went away the women have been running things to suit themselves. I'm glad you have decided to come back and restore order, for doing housework and minding the children is wearing out the strength of every man in the Emerald City."
"Hm!" said the Scarecrow, thoughtfully. "If it is such hard work as you say, how did the women manage it so easily?"
"I really do not know," replied the man, with a deep sigh. "Perhaps the women are made of cast-iron.""
- L. Frank Baum, "The Land of Oz"
Sunday, February 14, 2010
I don't know why, but I received an advertisement in the mail from a megachurch about 200 miles away. They're apparently celebrating the "grand opening" of a new facility.
According to the mailer, here's what you'll find at their church:
- Real direction for people on a real journey
- Non-judgmental atmosphere
- Environments that are relevant, enjoyable, and meaningful
- Small groups to develop meaningful friendships
Two upcoming sermon titles are "Realizing My Dreams" and "Lowering My Stress."
Um, ok.
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Comments on "Megachurch Advert":
2. Paul Wilkinson
- 02/14/2010 6:45 pm CST
Never bother with a megachurch mailout that doesn't come with a coupon for preferred parking.
4. Doug
- 02/14/2010 8:18 pm CST
Indeed. I found myself thinking: "Apart from how wrong this is, who exactly would be attracted to ANYTHING by this?" Even if I could accept the attractional mindset, I wouldn't use this to do it.
I've never met a seeker as dumb as the seeker-movement guys seem to think they are. Met a lot of pastors that superficial, though...
5. Bill
- 02/14/2010 8:33 pm CST
Jared, LOL!!!
"I've never met a seeker as dumb as the seeker-movement guys seem to think they are."
True dat.
6. joel hunter
- 02/14/2010 9:51 pm CST
I'm shocked at the contempt expressed in this thread for the average person. The church's mailer is just simple economics: they understand what their customers want to buy. They've just observed what people like and what they want to do. It's called outreach. The upcoming sermons reflect that the value of the message is based on the consumer's subjective assessment of it. If your church isn't customer-driven, then it will stagnate and die in the highly competitive church market. You've got to have the right strategic plan, the demographic and market data, and a staff committed to innovation and product excellence. All church consumers these days expect some basic services and customer sensitivity from their church experience and the successful church will have to continually innovate to avoid becoming yet another monument in the graveyard of tradition.
7. Jared
- 02/15/2010 6:42 am CST
[Before anyone jumps at that bait, this is sort of Joel's shtick to provoke responses. He does that sort of thing to commenters at the iMonk's place all the time. He doesn't really believe what he's saying.]
Joel, I appreciate your "approach," but not gonna allow manipulative comments in the Thinklings threads, man.
8. Bill
- 02/15/2010 7:06 am CST
:-)
Yeah, I saw Joel's response and immediately recognized the BHT source and snapped to what was going on.
Could have been a fun brou-ha-ha though.
9. nhe
- 02/15/2010 11:54 am CST
Whereas I agree with the assessments here of the ad Bird references (especially because I hate sermon series topics like that - they're literally gag-reflex inducing), I must say that I see nothing wrong with the similar ad that Doug ran across (comment #1 here).
If I were unchurched but seeking, I might actually check out the church Doug references - don't see anything I wouldn't like there.
10. Bill
- 02/15/2010 2:13 pm CST
nhe, you may be right.
But I still don't think it's a good trend. It has a very Mac vs PC feel to it. "You won't have to be around those hypocrites in suits! Pull those jeans on and come rock with us!"
Again, probably better than Bird's ad. But I still don't think it's good.
My opinion only, of course.
11. nhe
- 02/15/2010 2:56 pm CST
True Bill, but in this day and age, what unchurched person would want to put on a suit or dress and listen to organ music on Sunday morning?
I think we all agree that the attractional model is woefully unbiblical......but if the goal is just to get people in the door, the "blue jeans and rock & roll" advertising has merit.
12. Bill
- 02/15/2010 3:07 pm CST
"True Bill, but in this day and age, what unchurched person would want to put on a suit or dress and listen to organ music on Sunday morning?"
Well, not really my point, so I don't disagree with you :-) (although, believe it or not, not all "seekers" are anti tradition. Sometimes they are surprised by how untraditional we are).
And, you're right. If the goal is just to get people in the door, the advert Doug cited is a good one.
Just not for me. I've lived through that stuff, took part in it, and I carry a lot of guilt with me about it. One of the side-effects of it was to build into people the "we're different, (and better!) than those people" [whoever those people are] attitude. Which is poison to koinonia and an iron-curtain against becoming a part of the big "C" Church.
Can't speak for anyone else, but as for me, never again.
13. Bill
- 02/15/2010 3:10 pm CST
And just for clarification: my previous comment has nothing at all to do with church style. It's more to do with church attitude. I wear jeans to church every week.
14. Raindream
- 02/15/2010 3:14 pm CST
My reaction to Doug's ad was more positive than Bird's ad too. You'll find a non-judgmental atmosphere at our church, not like what you get at Second Methodist of the Greater Blessing. But "non-religious" will have to be defined. Maybe they just love Jesus--let's not talk about who he is or what he said or anything close to doctrine, which only divides people who are going to heaven anyway.
Bird's promotion reminds me of something Tim Keller said. He said some churches miss the gospel by communicating God will accept you however you are--period. They say we can come to him as we are without ever needing to change anything. They miss the transformative nature of the good news, that real life with Christ will make us like Christ.
Keller also said that other churches miss the gospel by communicating a need for people to clean themselves up before God will accept them. The good news isn't what changes them; they must improve themselves and keep up that work to please God.
Now that I write this, I think Jared said something like this too.
15. nhe
- 02/15/2010 3:27 pm CST
Doug's example at best only implies that "we're different". It's not saying it. I think its a good church ad. I'd check it out if I was an unchurched seeker with a blank slate - which I think is who they're after.
This is interesting to me because we go to and are very involved in a seeker church that has been stuck in attractional mode for a long time.
My wife and I left our church for this reason last year but recently have come back - we just couldn't find anything close (25 min or less drive) that we both liked better - and this is Atlanta!
We have decided to work with what is there, rather than resist it - it isn't easy, but it's working. We're now leading a Sunday Morning small group designed for people who are seeking non-Christians or are new to church. So we're kind of trying to do the missional thing inside the attractional walls - we almost feel kind of undercover. We're using an Andy Stanley designed curriculum for this kind of group - called "Starting Point". Its fun - my wife and I slip in digs against the attractional model without the people knowing who we're talking about.....trying to change the church from within, and we have the small groups director on our side.
16. Doug
- 02/15/2010 3:45 pm CST
nhe, thanks for the thoughtful interaction with my comment. Also, congrats on living in ATL-me too.
I guess I had two points:
1. Attractional is bad
2. This is ineffective attractional.
I think my second point came through much louder, and I can see your point, that this might actually work for certain groups.
I'll second Bill here, but most of the "seekers" I know in my demographic who go to church go because they find something transcendent-the whole "rock music" thing really isn't a draw for them. It's honestly a turn-off, usually. But that's my demographic, and I thank you for the reminder of different demographics, and how they might react differently.
Having said that, I'm glad to see you pursuing missional, Jesus-centered means of interaction with folks-you have my prayers!
19. Andrew
- 02/15/2010 6:26 pm CST
Not really responding to anyone in particular, but a general response to the comments thread.
I don't know how many "blank slate" unchurched people are actually out there, at least in America. I know they do exist, but I would guess that what might drive them to the Church would be more transcendent than rock music, jeans, and coffee.
In the college arena, I see a lot of kids who went to church while they were home, stopped going when they came to college, and eventually decide to try church again, on their own terms. I think church marketers would be surprised how many gravitate toward the more traditional churches. Then again, many of those are kids who grew up in the mega-church environment. I know quite a few disillusioned Catholics who have ended up in the more modern-style churches.
Is the marketing effective? Maybe. Mega-churches are, after all, "mega" for a reason. I'm not sure how many of the truly unchurched are drawn into those churches, but I know it happens.
So, I guess my comment is one big, "I don't know." I agree with Bill that style isn't my issue. There are some very big churches that do incredible work in discipleship and I know there are smaller, more liturgical churches, that do a really bad job of growing members.
For what it's worth, speaking as a young adult male, neither advertisement in question would attract me. I like U2, wear jeans, and am all about non-judgment, but I can't see myself being pulled in by an ad like that.
20. joel hunter
- 02/15/2010 6:53 pm CST
So, Jared and Bill, suppose you hadn't known who the evil person was behind #6. Suppose that I had identified myself as a member of the church that sent out the mailer. Or as the pastor delivering those sermons.
My point in framing the comment as a reductio ad absurdum had a much different purpose than the sophistic motives you ascribed to me. The makers of the advert and the leaders of the church in question have a logic to what they're doing (which can be found at any number of blogs). I simply gave voice to that logic since no one else was. No, I don't agree with it. But why not give reasons for what you find objectionable rather than engage in a knowing winks amongst yourselves? You guys are an affable and charitable bunch--wouldn't you extend some courtesy to this church if they happened by? So: assuming that the leaders of the church would recite the standard litany of Great Results (more people hear about Jesus, conversions and baptisms, people getting their lives back together, serving the community, etc.), what principled reasons do you have against what they're doing?
21. Jared
- 02/15/2010 8:32 pm CST
The makers of the advert and the leaders of the church in question have a logic to what they're doing
I spent 13 years in the attractional seeker church movement, as a layman and a staff member. I know the logic well. :-)
Reasons against it:
1) Number one, it pushes Jesus Christ and his gospel inside a Trojan horse of programming. This is at least in contradiction to Paul's claim that the gospel is of first importance.
2) Secondly, what we win people with is what we win them to. Anybody inside the attractional megachurch movement knows that longtime retention of attenders/members is practically nonexistent. Someone always has better coffee, better music, better kids' facilities, better speaking, better and cooler whatever. If we commit to win people with those things, we commit to winning them to those things, and as with all things Consumer, the newer versions always attract away those jaded with previous models.
3) Thirdly, the emerging data on these movements, which are relatively young and therefore didn't have much research on their "success" until recently, is that they are neither evangelizing many lost people nor maturing Christians into spiritually growing disciples. This is an across the board FAIL.
What previous champions of "worship evangelism" like Sally Morgenthaler are now admitting is that the seeker church movement has only succeeded in attracting disillusioned Christians and then trading them around congregations every 4-6 years.
Do some people get saved in this mix? Yes, of course.
22. Bill
- 02/15/2010 8:37 pm CST
Well, Joel, mainly because I knew it was you I didn't respond :-)
I have no principled reason at all. I'll defer to you on this.
23. Bill
- 02/15/2010 8:42 pm CST
Plus, as expected (just noticed he commented) I knew Jared would say it better than I ever could.
25. nhe
- 02/15/2010 9:40 pm CST
You know, the more I look at the ad in comment number one - the more I like it! Really!
I do agree that touting rock music is a bit of a turn off and easily seen through.....so maybe I'd take that out........but non-religious (a loaded term that needs to be expained, but I like it) coffee, jeans, all out worship, be yourself, know you're loved - that all sounds good to me.
Again I should reiterate - I agree the ad is attractional and that's not good - but, as far as attractional ads go - that one has a hook - all I'm sayin! :)
26. Jared
- 02/16/2010 8:16 am CST
All ads are attractional. That's the purpose.
I don't think attractional "equals" bad. I think our churches/ministries should be "attractive," at least in the way that salt is tasty and an uncovered lamp shines light into the darkness.
I think there is a proper degree of attractional, and then there's trying to make Six Flags Over Jesus.
Leave a Comment:
I can beat that! Allow me to quote directly from a card I received at a church I did some work for recently:
"A non-religious, rock music, wear your jeans, bring in your coffee, all-out worship to God kind of place where you can be yourself and know that you are loved."
Back: "Party on Sunday 10 AM."