*** update 8:34am

And I thought the blond chick was nice. . .

She had to prevent him from resisting again.

*** update 8:46pm

Brilliant, Jack, just brilliant...

Which part? In the flashback or in the Hydra?

*** update 8:54pm

Sawyer and Kate . . . I hope she makes up her mind this season.“We’re under water, aren’t we?” . . . more brilliance.

"This is an aquarium, isn't it?" was what he said. Not the same thing.

***

Blond chick “It’s pretty much about everything”. Truer words . . .

Matthew Fox - some good acting here.

Just realized . . . new Sarah.

The best that I can surmise is that they are running subtle social experiments to condition and "break" them for what ever purpose they have in store.

And here is my my theory that I posted about almost two months ago on another site, though I've had to replace the href tags with links in parenthesis, since the comments section hate them:

Alvar Hanso and The Hanso Foundation

If you'll examine the third image (www.lostpedia.com/images/d/d6/BlastDoorMapOverlay.jpg) down in the LostPedia entry on the Blast Door Map (www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Blast_Door) and look in the lower right hand corner you'll find the entry "Known final resting place of Magnus Hanso/Blackrock." It indicates the Hanso family has had a long association with the island. I believe the island to either be a former Dutch colonial holding or privately owned by the Hanso family.

In the orientation film, it was stated that Alvar Hanso, being a weapons manufacturer, supplied arms to the Dutch resistance during WWII. This may or may not be a lie he propagated to clean up his postwar image. Either way, I believe his family's knowledge of the island lead to its use by the Dutch and German SS for experiments to create an "Aryan Superman." This also lines up nicely with Heinrich Himmler's (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himmler) obsession with occultism, since he was also head of the SS.

If his involvement with the Dutch resistance was truth, he may have created the Hanso Foundation--the antithesis, as he saw it, to Nazi experiments--as a way to redeem himself, or if his involvement was a lie, he may simply have continued the Nazi research under the guise of a Utopian project.

Also, a side note: Alvar Hanso would most certainly be in his nineties by the time the events of Lost occurred/are occurring, yet he is still able to run a multi-national corporation and if you've been following the Lost Experience (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Experience), you know that there are sparingly few photos of the man. Could he have some how slowed his aging through the use of Hanso Foundation research involving the island?



The Island

Of course it has been suggested that the island may be a remanant of Atlantis, Lemuria, or some other lost civilization. However, I think it more likely that the island is one of the Fortunate Isles (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_island) or Isles of the Blessed, like Avalon (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon), Tír na nÓg (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%ADr_na_n%C3%93g), Hesperides (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides), or the island from Urashima Taro (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urashima_Tar%C5%8D), where the island is geographically or temporally isolated from the outside world and has properties of healing and rejuvenation. Perhaps it may be THE Fortunate Isle, the root of all other legends.

Just covering those islands I mentioned, here are some parallels:

Tír na nÓg - From the Wikipedia entry, "Tír na nÓg was considered a place beyond the edges of the map, located on an island far to the west. It could be reached by either an arduous voyage or an invitation from one of its fairy residents...This otherworld is a place where sickness and death do not exist. It is a place of eternal youth and beauty." This of course parallels the islands apparent ability to heal and Desmond's "snow globe" theory.

Hesperides - From the Wikipedia entry, "The Garden of the Hesperides is Hera's orchard in the west, where either a single tree or a grove of immortality-giving golden apples grew...The Hesperides were given the task of tending to the grove, but occasionally plucked from it themselves. Not trusting them, Hera also placed in the garden a never-sleeping, hundred-headed, dragon, named Ladon, as an additional safeguard." Could this be a reference to the island's "security system" ?

Avalon - The burial sight of King Arthur. From the Wikipedia entry, "According to some legends Arthur merely sleeps there, to awaken at some future time." Jack's father was not in the coffin when he finally found it and he saw glimpses of him before that, in addition, dead relatives have been making appearances to the Lostaways, in dreams and in person. Could they be "asleep" on the island in some fashion?

The Legend of Urashima Taro - From the Wikipedia entry, "Upon arriving home Urashima discovers that over 300 years have passed in the real world and no one can remember him or any of his contemporaries. Wallowing in depression he heads to the beach and remembers the box he was given. He opens it and a white cloud is released and he suddenly ages and dies - the box having contained his true age. Variants of this story have developed throughout Oceania and the actual origin is unknown." The island is most likely located in the region of Oceania (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceania) and the legend Urashima Taro has unkown origin, presumably outside of Japan. Further, this also seems to correspond with Tír na nÓg's location of being "far to the west" (Hesperides also being located west) and "beyond the edges of the map" in the world as the Celts knew it. Since we know people have found the island from time to time, legends may have developed independently of one another, as stories were brought back by different people.



The Swarm/Cloud/"Security System"

I believe that the dragon Ladon from the Hesperides legend and the box containing the cloud from Urashima Taro may be garbled references to the island's "security system." I have four variant theories of what it might be:

Theory One: As stated in Hesperides, the cloud may just be a guard dog watching over the island and the secrets/powers it contains.

Theory Two: The cloud is not a swarm of any kind (the Lost writers have previously dismissed the idea that it is a nano-robot swarm), but manifestation of a cloud that contains all the illness--mental and physical--that the island has healed the Lostaways of. It is essentially sucking up their conditions like a vacuum and the cloud is the bag, but also a vault of sorts, which would make it a "security system" for everything it contained. Tamper with it, and it may release all the illness inside.

The physical ailments seem to be the easiest to heal, which explains why Locke was able to walk so suddenly and why Charlie didn't suffer severe withdrawal after kicking heroine cold turkey. We also have signs of mental/emotional healing: Ecko's redemption, Locke's sense of purpose & connection to the island, and the various visions other people have had that seem to be leading them places. But emotional scars also seem to take longer, as they are a deeper type of wound and involve human choice.

Theory Three: The cloud is both a vault and a guard dog.

Theory Four: The cloud only absorbs negative psychic energy and the the magnetic anomaly is an "energy spot" that heals physical ailments (as the healer described to Rose).



The Statue

Is it ancient or is it modern?


Mystical Abilities

The island seems to either attract those with abnormal abilities or impart them on those whose visit. In the case of Hesperides, Avalon, and Tír na nÓg many heroes and figures from legend visited these places. Could it be, in the continuity of Lost, that many of these legendary figures were people who had obtained abilities from the island? Could that have been what the SS were seeking, specifically, during WWII?

======================================================

I have a feeling that all the old abandoned facilties we've seen were tests to cull the population for this utopian society, which means the present population were former test subjects called back to participate in this planned community. Obviously, there is more to it than that, but that is all I have for an operative theory right now.

Wow, David. What a comment!

Just to clarify:

"“This is an aquarium, isn’t it?” was what he said. Not the same thing."

True. Then he said "We're under water, aren't we?" - I posted that as soon as he said it.

Well, as I remember, I had an intetion of posting that here once you guys started up another thread. Just seemed like a good opportunity.

"Which part? In the flashback or in the Hydra?"

I was referring to him opening the door that sealed out the water.

Sarcasm does not become you :) Yes, Jack has had his moments, but he also has stopped to think and calculate alternatives at times.

I'm sure you don't remember, but I'm a Sayid fan myself. I just thought Jack had more intelligence than to try to get out of a hopeless situation with pure brawn and threats. He'd do better to jolly them along until he know what's going on. Even then, the Others hold all the cards as far as I see right now.

Blonde Chick = Juliette (not Julia)

I've thought all along that Jack's Dad was Sarah's other man, so they got me there. I was really hoping to get back to the hatch (or what's left of it) tonight.

Jack’s Dad being Sarah’s other man would have been really grosstesque.

Indeed, but the good news is he wasn't.

Oh, favorite line from this episode:

"So I guess this means I'm not in the book club?"

The pre-credits opening: AWESOME

Okay, so you know I'm a huge Jack fan, so I'm going to cut him some slack anyway, but a) I thought his attempt at strong-arming his way out of there was mucho cool. The dude wants to save his friends! And b) his "not thinking so smartly" might be explained, at least in part, by the drugs Juliet said would make him hallucinate, and then of course the two things we know about Jack, one old and one new. The old is that he is addicted to "fixing things." That makes him impulsive and stubborn. Those aren't virtues, of course, but I find no reason to dislike him because of those things. And the new thing of course, based on the flashbacks, is the hurt he was obviously freshly feeling over his wife's infidelity.

Jack is the man. Sorry. But he is. ;-)

Anybody know which Stephen King book they were reading in the book club at the beginning?
I think that was cool because King is a huge fan of the show and sat in with LOST writers recently while researching stuff for Entertainment Weekly.

The whole aquarium/underwater thing: Hey, I didn't know they were underwater. I wouldn't have necessarily deduced that even by the flood he unleashed when he opened the door. I think he was putting it together vis a vis the chains and the weird table and the glass wall. He was finally thinking clearly.
Some folks just seem to want to stretch to find anything to criticize about the dude! ;-)

And my biggest complaint:
No Kiele Sanchez. :-(
Maybe next week.

And does Zeke not have the funkiest facial bone-structure imaginable?

Who's Kiele Sanchez? You mentioned her earlier as a new character, I just assumed that's who was playing Juliet.

And, Jared, I like Jack. I really do.

I'm just waiting for him to do something that doesn't end in disaster.

Anything ;-)

I've added something to vote on in the thread.

Do you think the Others are truly “the good guys"?

Did anyone else feel like Juliette might be Jack's half-sister? (Although Claire may be a more likely candidate, as the woman Jack's father visited was in Australia, and Juliette does not have an accent.) But there are other explanations for that - maybe she was sent to be with the Others as a young child. It would be one way to keep her away from Jack's dad. She seemed very tender/protective of Jack at times (hand up against the glass?) almost like the longing in Russo's daughter in a few episodes...


Maybe Ben and Juliette are former/estranged lovers. There seemed to be something particular going on there besides dislike.

Don't know how they'll play out the Others' motivations ("good" or "bad"), but I'm bored of them. Seriously. I just don't like them, and not in a "they're the bad guys" way. I'm just bored with them and their whole Dharma Initiative labs and all that. Just not my thing, I guess.

I much preferred it when it was just the Lostaways and their spooky mysteries on their side of the island and the Others were largely faceless, nameless spectres.
---

No, Juliet was not Kiele Sanchez. Sanchez is obviously not a big name, but she was on the short-lived Breckin Meyer sitcom 2 years ago based on a real life Midwestern family. It was really good. And then last year she was on a WB show called "Related." I'm hoping she'll end up being a Lostaway, but I've read she will play an Other.
Juliet looked familiar, though. I may need to IMDB her, because Beck and I couldn't figure out where we'd seen her before.

I think Sarah was played by the same actress as last time (Julie Bowen), but she did look different. Someone on the TV Squad blog asked if Bowen has had "work done," so her appearance was noticed elsewhere too.

I thought the episode supported Jared's new theory:
that this is some sort of "story" where the characters have become self-aware. Two things in particular:
-the book club (Why is Henry out I wonder?) evaluating how good a "story" is.
-the dossier Juliet had on Jack apparently had all information about him. Like the background info a writer would know about a character in his story.

Did anyone hang around and watch "The Nine"?

Phil/Jared - while I love the "they are all characters in an author's book" theory, I really doubt that that will be what this ends up. It's all pointing to a corporate scheme of some sort.

Quaid, you asked when Ben left Juliet for dead - we watched the show twice last night - when Jack opened the door and the water rushed in, Henry left via a door and closed it in Juliet's face (i.e., did not wait for her). I missed that the first time through.

"Don’t know how they’ll play out the Others’ motivations (”good” or “bad”), but I’m bored of them. Seriously. I just don’t like them, and not in a “they’re the bad guys” way. I’m just bored with them and their whole Dharma Initiative labs and all that. Just not my thing, I guess.

I much preferred it when it was just the Lostaways and their spooky mysteries on their side of the island and the Others were largely faceless, nameless spectres."

Jared, I have to agree with you here. My concern is that this could turn into another J.J. Abrams "Rembaldi" plot like on Alias, where it just get strung out and strung out and gets more ridiculous as it goes.

There is such a thing as having too many characters, too many plotlines, etc. Hopefully the writers will have discipline and focus. There are too many things (like all the hatches) still to be explained.

And I hope they don't assume that we already know after having spent the summer digging through Hanso websites. Because I personally want to get my info from the show.

I wasn't asking when Ben left her for dead, but if that was really what was going on.

And the knockout punch begs the repeated question, how are these people so strong and in such good shape? Maybe they rejected Hurley because he was too unhealthy.

Jared - I knew I saw Juliette before. She became Mrs. Claus in The Santa Clause 2.

apparently the king book was Carrie. i didn't catch that, but i read it somewhere and they seemed pretty sure of it. also, there's mention that "ben" would never pick such a book. we just didn't know "ben" was significant until the end of the show. so there's some ben/juliet tension that's obvious to more than a few folks.

i also read this about the book club discussion:

"Also of interest is the fact that to these others, Adam at least, the idea of psychic powers is 'science fiction' and 'hokum pokum.' This seems to be against the grain of what we know about the seemingly supernatural others from the seasons of the past."

oh and jill... i watched "the nine"

are you starting a discussion thread over at "forty hours"?

"Carrie" makes sense from a pyschic powers-type angle. I was curious because the brief discussion in Juliet's living room seemed to be more about religion or something in relation to the book. I wondered if it was "The Stand," and further if the postapocalyptic, good survivors vs. bad survivors thing was in play.

I think they called Henry Gale "Ben" at the beginning of the show too. Someone at TV Squad acted like the big climax at the end was the revelation that his name was Ben. But someone called him that at the beginning too, right?

The opening was really neat, what with The Others having a developed little suburban town going on. But when they move into the dingy labs and locker rooms and cages and start acting all Other-y, it bores me.

I've seen the Henry Gale dude in stuff before, but can't remember what exactly. His "Lost" look reminds me kind of Kevin Spacey in "Se7en." Creepy and ostensibly capable of all manner of evil.

I really hope one doesn't have to have scoured some Sprite promotional website to be able to decipher this show.

Jared, I think Ben was refered to in the club, but never called by name, until the end... One could've inferred his name from the obscure bookclub reference, but I know I wasn't that sharp 2 minutes into it.

Ben also was really mad at Ana-Lucia in the lock-up, if it follows that Ben is the leader, then he knew that Ana's camp was resonsible for the death of three of his people (one being Gibson, who he sent out) and that Charlie shot and killed Ethan too. (aside: Is Ethan Juliet's husband, or just the handyman round camp?) I think Ben is a bit angry at these survivors. But he and Juliet don't have the greatest relationship either.

According to filmfodder the book was Carrie. He did a frame by frame on his Tivo.

OK, quick question - ever discussion online on this ep states that it's "obvious" that Ben and Juliet once were an item.

Did I miss something? All I got was that they don't like eachother. Who says they had to at one time be romantically involved?

I'm not saying they weren't, but I just didn't get that from the ep

Maybe some Hanso website said so somewhere? ;-)

Ben and Juliet weren't mentioned at any point in the summer sites/game. I think you've apportioned more importance to the game than exists. All we learned from the game is a little background to why the island exists in its current form along with what the numbers originally meant.

As far as Ben and Jules being an item: no - you've missed nothing. Still, I've heard this season will be a little more heavy in the kissy dept., so maybe this is where the resentment originated among these two. I have a couple of other theories listed in a comment above. These other theories are that Ben and Juliet might be brother/sister or at one time vied over control/leadership for the community.

I mean, we all have had fights with a loved one before, but have we ever left the hated party to die?

You may recall Emerson (Benry) as a serial killer from "The Practice" in its last few seasons.

You see a theme here?

As someone who has banged his fists against immovable walls and tugged hard on unbudging chains -- literally and metaphorically speaking -- I just can't join the "see, Jack is such a dolt" brigade. It's called anger and frustration. It must be nice to live in a world where you can have your friends killed and kidnapped, get kidnapped yourself, get drugged, get thrown in a dark cell, get your mind messed with, and yet still be a quite calm, rational, logical person.

Yes, that'd be awesome.
The rest of us like to bang on walls every now and then.

Ok, Ok, everyone

As I said in comment #33, I will now begin giving Jack lots of grace (at least as far as this ep goes). At least I'll try.

Other ideas

The Others are mutants or aliens (four-toed?) who can't have kids. This is all about having kids to replenish their population.

Results of a scientific experiment gone wrong. They were the subjects, not Dharma. They rose up and killed their Dharma captors.

On the other hand: How could Juliet know that Sarah was "very happy"? Either the Others have nearly omniscient knowledge of their subjects, or this is purgatory, or some other supernatural holding place.

I get the sense that Juliet is a psychologist, and, like all the Others, a whiz at playing with people's minds. So you're probably correct.

People have mentioned elsewhere that details of Jack's past (like graduating one year early) might have been hard to come by.

Also, Juliet seemed pretty open to answering any question Jack had. So I wonder . . .

"Any thoughts about the end of last season when the scientists noticed the abberation in their equipment readout and called up Desmond’s honey? Does that play into anything here???"

Well, it begs a big question: If Penny is desperately looking for the island, who's doing the food/CD/dossier drops? Someone must know where it is.

I guess, unless it's just a major oversight, it means that whatever corp (Hanso? I'm not up on that stuff) Penny represents, someone else - in the name of Dharma - is running the show on the island, for reasons unknown.

About possible supernatural reasons - saw this on a forum. Had any of you heard this? It fits with my expectation:

A lot of people are complaining that the "supernatural" stuff has been dropped in favor of the scientific. Well, that's not exactly accurate. From the very beginning of the series, the writers have promised that everything would have a scientific or pseudo-scientific explanation.

I don't really think it's purgatory - see comment #62

^^ sorry this is Bethany commenting. not De. i wrote my name but when i pressed 'say it' thats how it came out.. ?

"Is the “Bill” in comment 64 De?"

Yes, that was my more mild-mannered doppelganger (forgot what site I was on :-)

Potentially.

That being said, far be it from me to create a post for the sole purpose of garnering comments. :-)

Actually, I was hoping to live-blog every episode of Lost this season. We'll see.

Hope this season is good . . .

Amanda - why would you think that? Just wondering - I didn't get that sense at all from the ep.

The theory about Claire being Jack's half sister has more creedence just because that may have been why Christian was in Australia. But I'm not sure what the connection to Juliet would be.

Many are also speculating that Juliet and Benry are a past item. I don't see that either. I just think they don't like eachother. Juliet being married to Ethan seems more likely.

Hi De thanks for the response. I thought there was something odd about the way Juliet acted around Jack, like she knew him already, or had some sort of investment in him. Maybe the scene in the aquarium/jail when she put her hand against the glass - it seemed sort weird to me, and not in a romantic sense.
And she's blond, like Jack's dad's baby momma in the flashback...
No Australian accent, though.

Maybe my imagination is a little overactive!