Oh, and I left out All I want is You

I now gladly leave behind the most overrated band in the history

You're talking about The Beatles, right?

I meant to say "and by almost every conceivable objective measure"

No, I was thinking of the group that Bono guy is in. What is it? Sonny and Cher? Or, no, well, whatever.

The Beatles are, arguably, and by almost every conceivable measure, the most transitional and greatest band in modern pop history.

Alot of bands had better musicianship. A few bands had more impressive lyrics. A few bands had better songwriting. But taken on the whole, and especially considering their influence, The Beatles still reign supreme. Pretty much everyone who has come after them was either imitating them, building on them, trying to one-up them, trying to repudiate them, or building on someone who had already tried to do these things.

So, all you little Millenials out there, stick that in your iPod!!!!

Oh, and by the way, I have it on good authority that Bono has walked on water only once, and got seasick.

I'm still kinda' waiting for someone to affirm my U2 hardcoreness...

Also, what Jared said. Like it or not, U2 has had that kind of enduring influence on culture. They're kind of everybody's band, even for those who aren't particularly fans, just like the Beatles once were. Going to their Atlanta show was crazy-hanging out with folks my dad's age, and a 12 year old at his first show. Pretty cool, and especially so when Bono led us in Amazing Grace...

Although, for what it's worth:

"I hear the Beatles and say, "Wow."

I hear U2 and say "Hallelujah."

Hallelujah wins for me."

DOES succeed in making me feel like an unspiritual philistine.

DOES succeed in making me feel like an unspiritual philistine.

No, you're not unspiritual just cuz you dig the Beatles over U2. The Beatles got that cool Krishna song you can groove to. Or that one about Mother Mary.

I don't see it (for instance, I can't think of a band that is U2 derivative) but, as those who know me know, I'm not exactly up on pop-culture.

Coldplay and Radiohead, arguably the biggest rock bands of the last fifteen years, both cite U2 as their biggest influence. In the former, at least, it's obvious.

Doug.......but who is "Stuck in a Moment" written about? That's the question I think?

I always got the sense that "Still haven't found what I'm looking for" was kind of a precursor to U2s slide in the late 80s/90s away from faith, but that they regained their bearings and came back strong in the late 90s/2000s.

I know I'm appealing to the subjective here, but whether you're "good" with that last bit or not is beside the point, really.

I apologize.

I think the more apt comparison is that the Beatles are Bono and U2 is the Edge. :-)

(And I have no idea why I'm criticizing the Beatles, who are awesome and (for the moment) better than U2. :-)

A common misconception.

OK, I'm no longer in the Beatles vs. U2 debate. I'm honestly asking a question (so, I'm not baiting you or anything).

I was, in a way, "there" in ways you guys weren't (because I'm way older :-). I remember in the early 80s being jazzed about this new band that did Bible studies backstage and had really good songs like Gloria, Forty, etc. Over time they appeared (I say "appeared") to change and I just figured that another one had bitten the dust. A friend of mine from work went to the Achtung Baby show and commented on Bono standing up there screaming "I'm F---- Awesome!" and then handing out Achtung Baby condoms, etc . . .

OK, I'm ok with all that being parody, on purpose, etc., even though I was one of those occasional fans who didn't catch the nuance. But I specifically remember Thinklings Moots where we talked about how U2 had, in at least some ways, gone away from the Lord for awhile, a good while, but had come back. I mean, we had those conversations, right? Remember the email discussion we had ten years ago, pre Thinklings, about the Bono quote stating that he doesn't really consider himself a Christian?

I'm convinced that U2 is legit, spiritually. But I thought it was settled fact that that wasn't always the case. Which I'm totally OK with. Now is a lot more important than Then.

Once again, I may very well be wrong on this.

Bill, I don't remember that conversation, but I could be forgetting it.

I do remember discussing King's X in ways like that, and I do vaguely remember talking about Jerry Gaskill saying he doesn't really consider himself a Christian or something like that.

Not saying the U2 version didn't happen; I just don't remember it. Possible King's X convos got conflated?

As for their music and their faith in the 90's I'd say "kind of" to Bill. They have never been American evangelicals. "Salty" language including the F word isn't something they have a problem with. As Eugene Peterson said to his daughter when she heard Bono use the F word and said "but I thought they were Christians" - "honey I think that's how a lot of Irish Christians talk." As for Achtung Baby and Zooropa, Pop etc. U2 was taking a lot of hits from the critics for being so heart-on-the-sleeve sincere. Their Rattle and Hum album and movie were critically slammed, even though they sold fairly well. So U2 basically said "we have to reinvent ourselves. Our message is still the same but we have to slip it in through the back door because nobody is going to listen to us anymore if we stay as we are." In some ways their art transitioned from the modern (more straightforward) to the postmodern (more ironic and parodying what they had become, and the whole rock star image). That's what their 90's stuff was about - and they also put out a lot of stuff exploring the darker side of life and doubt, echoing parts of ecclesiastes and the darker Psalms, and acknowledging the allure of sin while not shying away from its consequences (in the book U2 at the End of the World they say Achtung Baby basically follows a married man as he strays from his wife and family - including both the attractive "pleasure of sin for a season" through the aftermath and the pain, with no easy, neat resolution).

At the same time, in their personal lives the 90's were their party years. Again, while never teetotaling American evangelicals they were a little more straight laced (at least by Irish rock band standards) in the 80's. They admit without going into specifics, that in the 90's, with the band in their 30's they kind of got into a lot of the rock star partying stuff that they had eschewed in their 20's. So yeah, there was probably some "drift" away from where they had been or should be. But the content of their faith remained basically the same.

Bono has said that he is so put off by so many Christians that he at times doesn't want to wear the lablel - and that's where he was when he gave that quote. He has never stopped considering himself a follower of Jesus though, and has come back around to being comfortable with the Christian label even if still uncomfortable with a lot of Christians.

This is a mini-review of Achtung Baby, by the late Dwight Ozard:

"For however graceful The Joshua Tree was, Achtung Baby!, U2’s first release of the 90’s, was equally troubling. After a movie and live album (Rattle and Hum) and a nearly two year hiatus, U2 had reinvented itself. Gone was the straightforward anthemic sound of the band, and gone too were the obvious message songs. Instead, U2 went to Berlin, where hero David Bowie had made so many ch-ch-changes. There the band created a techno-heavy, high-powered Euro-sound that was as jarring as it was energetic, wrapping it around songs that no longer dripped with sincerity, but instead with layers and layers of irony, mixed-messages and complex metaphor. At first listen it sounded to me like the embrace of rock and roll themes had overwhelmed the band’s sincerity. Even the bands new look—all leather and glam sweat—seemed to mock the furrowed-browed, change-the-world sincerity of the band’s first decade. I went on my radio show after one listen and trashed it thoroughly.

"A week later, however, I was back on the radio apologizing, and calling it the greatest rock record ever made. My apology holds—this is a timeless record, one that after a decade still finds something new to offer me, and more important, challenge me. Careful listening revealed the band’s embrace of the “rock star” thing through this period as a deconstruction of the myth of rock culture—a deconstruction that took full incarnation in Bono’s Zoo-TV tour on-stage characterizations.

"But despite Achtung Baby’s dark exterior, 10 years of listening has convinced me that this is among the most “faith-filled” discs ever made. The difference, of course, is that the songs on Achtung Baby! embrace the pain as well as the pleasure of this increasingly material world—and then finds a way to make compassion as immediate and intimate as the suffering it relieves. Still exciting, and still pure grace to me.


Eugene Peterson considers U2 modern day prophets:
http://www.atu2.com/news/bonos-prophetic-vox.html

I mean, we had those conversations, right? Remember the email discussion we had ten years ago, pre Thinklings, about the Bono quote stating that he doesn't really consider himself a Christian?

Like Jared, I don't remember those conversations. I do remember the Gaskill one, though. I'm not saying the convos never took place. Although I was a fan ten years ago, my level of naivete with regard to their history was pretty high.

Yeah, he's one of those awful liberal Christians - on at least some issues. But I think we worship the same savior.

Bono to Michka Assayas:

Assayas: I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?

Bono: Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.

Assayas: I haven't heard you talk about that.

Bono I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace.

Assayas: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.

Bono You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff.

Assayas: I'd be interested to hear that.

Bono That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity.

Assayas: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that.

Bono But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That's the point. It should keep us humbled… . It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven.

Assayas: That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank among the world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?

Bono No, it's not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says: No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah." I'm saying: "I am God incarnate." And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You're a bit eccentric. We've had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don't mention the "M" word! Because, you know, we're gonna have to crucify you. And he goes: No, no. I know you're expecting me to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this. So what you're left with is: either Christ was who He said He was—the Messiah—or a complete nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we've been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had "King of the Jews" on his head, and, as they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I'm not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that's farfetched …

Bono later says it all comes down to how we regard Jesus:

Bono: … [I]f only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. …When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my s--- and everybody else's. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a religious nut? And there it is, and that's the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.

Bill, it was in response to your #35.

I understood you to be saying that Bono probably thinks conservative Christians (as typified by American fundies and conservative evangelicals) are the problem, and to be hearkening back to your comments in other threads about people who want to be known as Christ-followers or some such thing, rather than as Christians, and how you don't like that. Sorry if I misunderstood.

My comment (36) was mostly tongue in cheek - or sarcastic but in a "between friends" kind of sarcasm and not meant in a mean spirit. You made it clear in posts above that you accept Bono's faith as genuine.

I love that interview - it really highlights why "Grace" is my favorite U2 song - I mean, U2 has a lot of Christian messages and overtones in their music, but this is the song that has always told me that Bono really "gets it".

Though the song doesn't mention God or Christ, it makes a sham out of "reaping what you sow" and "karma", and replaces it, basically, with Eph 2:8,9.....for me, that's too perfect for words.

"She [grace] travels outside of karma"

- tied for my "Favorite Lyric of All Time"......

....with Peter Gabriel's "I see the doorway to a thousand churches, the resolution of all the fruitless searches".

from "In Your Eyes"....which proves once again that bands with secular labels produce the best Christian music. ;)

Karl,

Yeah. I read that. Great stuff. IMO, Achtung Baby may be the best album ever made. Every song on that album is a virtual masterpiece.

Sorry to come back in late to the party, but two things;

1. Stuck in a moment is about Michael Hutchence,of INXS, who committed suicide.

2. Like the thoughts on "Still Haven't Found." I've wrestled with that one, but here's where I've come to: I certainly don't ever want to say "I found Jesus, but He's not enough." Knowing Jesus has answered a ton of questions for me. At the same time, it's raised a ton as well. For one thing, it teaches me to look, even to wait and groan, for the consummation of the new kingdom. I believe it, but I haven't found it (in its entirety) yet. But it's coming, and finding what I'm looking for before it's completely come is a distraction from the "Heavenly City, who's architect and builder is God." So I like the song, with that caveat