Amen times infinity.

Thanks Bird - you rock.

I have an honest question: Why is purity so important? I'm not asking "if" purity is important (it is) I'm asking why it's "so" important. Yes, I'm aware of the gasps and guffaws at the mention of such a question of balance and proportion, but yet that is my question.

It really hit me earlier last month when reading the church bulletin.

...The jr. high kids go to the jr. high retreat.
...The women are going to a Womens Conference. ...The high school girls are going to a combo camp/slumber party sorta event.
...But the high school boys to go a "purity conference"

Now I'm sorry (OK, I'm not) but something is askew here. Something is askew when the ministry to one gender borders on stigmatizing. No, it *is* stigmatizing and stereotyping, and in a way that we do NOT see on the other side of the isle. What kind of message does that send to boys about their sexuality, and to the girl who one day might date them? To me, it sends the unequivocal message that "sex = men's problem" and that sexuality (men's sexuality, that is) is not so much a gift but a cancer requiring lifelong, public enrollment in spiritual chemotherapy with a pittance of time given to other issues. Hey, I'm only going by what I see here.

Thoughts?

Drat, forgot to mention: mega-kudos on the "non-needs"! I would, however, note that the kind of gender portrayal (i.e., of men as idiots) also exists partly because of other anti-male, gender-specific biases, hence my question above.

As a kind of balance here, I'm wracking my brains to remember, ever in the history of the church I've been attending for 16 years. any kind of men's event focused on purity. I can't recall one.

I'm sure our men's group (I don't attend, because I'm a dork :-) has talked about purity/staying away from p()rn, etc. And we've had purity things for our students, but it's either been coed "true love waits" stuff or it's been specifically targeted at the girls (the whole "Waiting for Boaz" stuff. Using the book of Ruth to talk purity is something I find kinda funny (not because Ruth wasn't pure, just sayin'), but that's another story . . . :-)

I'm not saying you don't have a point, E. I'm just cautioning on assuming that what you see in your environs is normative.

I also think that men, as leaders, need to learn to lead out in purity. Too often the person in the dating relationship who's got the pressure on her to stay pure is the female. Men tend to have a lot more aggressive drive. So I'm certainly not against purity training focused at men.

I think like everything else we need balance.

Just my 2 shekels . . .

"As a kind of balance here, I'm wracking my brains to remember, ever in the history of the church I've been attending for 16 years. any kind of men's event focused on purity. I can't recall one."

I went to a Men's retreat at said church where purity wasn't advertised as the topic, but was the sole topic spoken on during the 24 hours in Trinity, Tx.

Still, the ministry, under its various forms of leadership throughout time, deserves credit for not being as stereotypical as the post mentions. I think that one or two in 16 years is about appropriate.

Yeah, I must have missed that one (I'm terrible about taking part in the men's ministry)

I went to Promise Keepers with them once, about a decade or more ago. We all wore these uber-dorky lime green hats that said "[Our church name] Mighty Men"

I mean, I'm all for being dorky (it's in my DNA) and I am disturbed by the over-emphasis on being cool in many churches these days, but . . . man, that was DORKY. Plus, I'm not sure we all lived up to our billing there.

Thirsty,

I don't consider myself to be metro. I think I've got plenty of masculine energy. I love war movies. I love sports. I love killing small animals.

Without question, I'd defend my family to death. The point of my post, however, is to argue that JESUS needs to be at the center of men's ministry (or any ministry for that matter), rather than sports, movies, camping trips, or anything else. Sure, we can do those things as part of ministry, but let's not major in them. We're men, not boys. Sometimes we need to put the toys away and get on our face before Almighty God.

For "An in-your-face, grace-filled approach to the subject of sexual purity," I recommend The Samson Society and the book by Nate Larkin, Samson and the Pirate Monks. The small groups are not confined to sexual purity issues, which I think is healthier for them, but Larkin's testimony deals with that issue. It's a big issue for men and women in our hypersexualized culture.

I whole-heartily recommend reading the book and considering the format described in it for your community or men's ministry.

What Christian men need to do is grow up.

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!!

Fortunately for all concerned, I have to run errands right now. So, I will cut this short, with maybe (but hopefully not) more to come later:

Some Christian men need to grow up. Heck, maybe most. But once they grow up, they will still find themselves facing many of the problems Thirsty Bear indicated. American society at large, and now evangelical churches, don't want grown up men. They want good little boys who will do what they are told and not much else.

Congratulations to those of you who haven't had to deal with this. I really think you are in the minorty, though.

Still like your post, Bird.

I just get tired of being made to feel like less than a man because I don't go to Hooters and kill bears with my bare hands.

Not going to Hooters is, I believe, an indicator of Christian maturity. Seriously. :-)

Most of us would pee our pants if we were in the middle of a real sword-battle

No kidding. Watching it in the movies and talking about how manly and cool it is isn't quite the same as being there and being sliced to death (or slicing someone to death).

The church doesn't need an army of armchair William Wallaces. It needs an army of JESUS clones.

One of the things a men's ministry needs is to offer help for men who feel like they know what they should be like, realize that they fall far short and feel defeated due to being beaten over the head with what failures they are as men.

Yes, the gospel is key here. God's grace covers a multitude of sins. But also key is the idea of healing and spiritual growth. The path of sanctification doesn't only consist of learning more doctrine and trying harder not to sin. A good men's ministry won't neglect teaching sound doctrine and encouraging right behavior, but it will also help men explore why in spite of all their knowledge of doctrine and of what they "should" be like and time spent in prayer and efforts to "be good" they keep turning at regular or irregular intervals to pornography, alcohol, TV or the internet to stimulate or numb themselves, or why they engage in destructive relational patterns with their wife and kids. Yeah, some of it is that we're all sinners. But why those particular sins, in this particular life? What void or hurt or craving exists and why does this other thing seem to hold an answer or offer a salve, and what is the truth that God wants to speak about that - not just generally and abstractly but specifically and personally into this man's life?

A men's ministry should lead men to discover what real life in Christ looks like and how it offers more, not less, than those substitutes that so many men turn to. It will help them discover what wounded or wanting places in their soul they are trying to fill with those things, and lead them to Jesus not just for forgiveness but also for real healing and filling of those places with his truth. "Turn to Jesus, know the Bible and be sexually pure" is all good advice. But we need more if we're really going to be able to do that and become transformed ever more into the image of Christ.

Bill,

Question 1: what does a grown-up Christian man look like?

One example: He leads in family in devotional reading and prayer, a few times a week, maybe every day. And here's how it goes: He takes a look at the busy schedule of himself and his family members, he takes into account whether he has a bunch of morning people or nightowls on his hands, he asks everybody when would be good for them. He tries to assess the changing spiritual needs of his family and take a good look at what materials are available out there at church or in the local Christian bookstore or wherever. He asks everybody what they would like to study and how. Then he decides when the family is going to have their time together and what they are going to study. And if his wife and kids are what should be too, they -- and I say this unapologetically and without any qualification beyond what I have already given -- fall in line and don't give any lip about it.

Admittedly, there aren't too many of these men out there. In part, because ...

Question 2: In what ways does the church try to force men to not grow up?

On the other hand, the typical evangelical church staff would be horrified at the prospect of this man actually taking charge over something as serious as a family Bible study. He is, after all, a buffoon, an alcoholic, an addict of who knows what on the internet (All men are, you know.), and, horrors, someone who finds the pastor's ten week sermon series on marital communication boring. What he should do instead is something called "taking the lead," and it goes like this: He takes his marching orders from the wife, holds the Bible study when she says, and just reads off a list of talking points that she hands him, trying for all he is worth to sound like he believes them all. The talking points that he receives from his wife should ideally be delivered in an hour and a half lecture where she 1) lays everything out in detail that only a pure idiot would need (since he is after all, just that) and 2) berates him for his abject failure in his pitiful efforts in leading yesterday's Bible study. And, if he's really doing his job, he will master the kabuki dance of "evangelical wifely submission," where he makes it look like all of her ideas were actually his in the first place so she can go to church on Sunday with her "wifely submission" credentials all intact.

So there. :)

Well Bob just articulated it very well.

Jared - Hah! I always wondered what happened to Blo. Now I know. He's in Hooters.

Bob - if you're saying that a man should be the spiritual leader of his family, I completely agree with you. Absolutely.

If you're saying he's a wuss for giving his wife some say in the scheduling, then I'm a wuss. My wife's way better at logistics than I am. I'm still a leader if I delegate, right?

A man's job is to disciple his family, in whatever form that discipleship must take. That responsibility should weigh heavily on him (it weighs heavily on me)

"On the other hand, the typical evangelical church staff would be horrified at the prospect of this man actually taking charge over something as serious as a family Bible study."

Is this the way your church is? If so, why are you still going there? Serious question

Most churches are dying for men to take some non-passive role.

I realize there's a lot of emotion and hurt feelings in this. I don't know how to talk about it without raising those.

Here's a confession for you guys: You know all those manly men's gatherings, where men stand up and confess their addiction to p()rn and cry about their father-wound and rock climb and hug and cry some more and cuss and say they are "God's first knight"?

They embarrass the crud out of me :-) They make me ashamed of my brothers and my gender. If that's what I have to do to be considered a manly man, you can keep it (not saying that's what you guys are saying, but I have watched the Men's ministry circus for years - rock concerts with men singing "Grow a pair", grunting, etc. No. Way.)

As a point of agreement, I def think there's too much of the "all men are sinful idiots" talk going around. An earlier commenter mentioned about men's p()rn addiction. Sometimes I think people assume all men have that problem. Let me first just say "Be careful if you think you stand" and "There but for the grace of God go I", but I have absolutely no interest in or practice of looking at p()rn. Not all men are that way. Not all men are wimps either (even if on the outside they don't have the normal trappings of burliness and hunterness). Not all men have father wounds either (my dad's great and I love him a lot).

"On the other hand...my Pastor has to look like Osteen and my wife blonde with perfect make-up."

Yes. That's a problem. But the funny thing to me is that the pastors I most hear talking about their "smokin' hot wife" are usually the young, "evangelical guys are wimps and need to man up" guys.

"I believe there is harm in passive, gentlemanly Christian male persona."

And this is my beef: We're mixing two things that are not related. Passivity is definitely bad. I have grief in my life rooted in times I was passive rather than active.

But being a gentleman? There was a time when that was considered a Knightly trait. Why is that bad?

Why is courtesy bad? Why is being kind and gentle bad?

Where's the Bible in all this? What does it say?

"You know all those manly men's gatherings, where men stand up and [1] confess their addiction to p()rn and [2] cry about their father-wound and rock climb and hug and cry some more and cuss and [3] say they are "God's first knight"?"

Bill, I don't see anything unbiblical or to be ashamed of in:

- [1] Publicly confessing previously hidden sin, provided it's in an appropriate forum,

-[2] Weeping over past grief that one may have never even allowed oneself to acknowledge,

-Acknowledging that we all have baggage in varying types and amounts from our childhood, in the form of (a) ways our parents affirmatively hurt us either physically or emotionally, intentionally or unintentionally, or (b) ways our parents passively and maybe even unknowingly failed to bestow on us something we really could have used because there is no such thing as a perfect parent, or (c) ways in which siblings or kids in school or in the neighborhood bullied or verbally or physically inflicted wounds on us that persist to this day . . . AND from the ways that we, as kids (or even adults) lacking appropriate wisdom, interpreted whichever combination of those types of events (or non-events) happened to us, and internalized untrue messages from them about ourselves and about God.

- Seeking to discern where one has been broken or left incomplete, where one has believed a lie and needs healing and the truth. Not just propositional truth but experienced, soul-touching truth that is received and lived into and results not just in "suck it up and keep limping along," but in real progress and healing and restoration of the imago dei as it was intended to be expressed in and through this individual life.

- [3] God showing someone that he doesn't see them as a failure or a F-up but has instead used something even as cliched as a Hollywood movie (or a novel by Tolkien or Lewis) to speak to them about who they are in him.

Why should that embarrass me? If people are being touched and transformed in those ways, then I'm all for it. There are other means for God to touch lives and hearts and bring maturing growth, healing and restoration. But just because I relate more to those other means, doesn't lead me to disparage means that clearly impact many others.

I have a strong inkling that Blo will make an appearance. 'Well, if he has the testicular fortitude to do so,' thought Thirsty Bear as he shaved with his Bowie knife.